Role of Da Champion...

[OnyxBlade]

So, I've been fellowing with the kin for the last few days and I'm picking up a lot of lessons regarding the different roles that I need to play at different times as a Champion. It's a lot more detailed than I thought it was going to be when I chose the class.

Here's a few questions: (Please correct me when I start using this; new to me; MMO terminology wrong)

For groups like the one we've had the last 2 days: (Captain, Champion (me), 2 hunters, 2 minstrels)

How do I best know when I need to break away from hacking at the Primary target to take Aggro away from those squishy Minstrels/Hunters/Burglars/Lore-Masters? (I've named this "roaming tank")

Do I just always assume I'm needed to do it? At first I was watching health meters and when someone got down to between 50% to 75% I'd go help, but I oftentimes found it too late. So I changed to just always do it. It worked MUCH better. But wanted to know what the "expected" behavior is.

[yunkor]

Yes always, but be careful to watch for CC. It's hard to see when a Loremaster or minstrel or burglar CCs something in this game. (CC means Crowd Control) so if you see a mob suddenly get dizzy, or walk away like it's confused , then don't hit it, since it's been stunned or feared.

Otherwise on my guardian I always pick up any adds unless I see them CCing it. Once you play through a couple pulls with a group you can start to get a feel for who is going to do what.

[Zhongo Fuzzyfutt]

As Yunk was saying, the build I have created, and the kin can attest for Zhongo is AGGRO King! What you have seen is less "traditional" so far...since guardians have a bunch of aggro generating tools that other classes do not... (for hard instances although you have been doing great, the rest of us have been on ventrilo, maybe one of the things to do is to have the minstrel set up an alias that send you a tell to get it off them, since you don't use voice that may be helpful)

So in short, your experience will really change when ya have a guardian like Mahk, to play with, but otherwise, probably best to talk strategy before the fights.

[Zhongo Fuzzyfutt]

PS...normally you will have better minstrels than me as well...remember I spend 99% of my time trying to get things to beat on me.

[OnyxBlade]

All of this time and I've not once played with a guardian! 99% of the time I the Tanking Champion. It's really hard to keep aggro with a champion sometimes. I've only got the one taunt right now. Sometimes I just have to wail on something until it looks at me. Which then causes me to drop fervor so I can block which then causes me to lose power like nobody's business... It's a challenge! But it's fun too! It's so hard I have to tell hunters to turn of stance of strength because one strike with an arrow and I'm chasing after the mob that's decided to eat hobbit hunter stew!

[hrafnr]

Hail Onyxblade and All,

The role of the swordsman is a bit more complex than most think to start. As a champion it is always good to assume you will need the best shield you can carry. And always good to assume that without an able guardian you will at least *off tank*. Speak to your fellows first. Captains make good tanks. And can probably hold aggro longer than you in most cases. My experience has been that it is very easy for me to get a foe's attention using my Shout, or a major strike to cause a lot of damage. However in most cases it is difficult for me to *hold* attention when a significant amount of damage, particularly ranged damage is dealt. Beware though you likely won't have as much armor as a guardian and will be harder to heal. You may focus our traits on getting and keeping an enemy's attention. I however do no such thing. When I am there, I make it clear my first role is to deal deadly blows so the carrion birds can pick clean their bones. However I have managed to control the attention of even superior foes for a period of time. A good role for the Champion is to be an emergency tank, keeping creatures off your Lore Master and Minstrels.

[OnyxBlade]

Aye Master Hrafnr,

Very well put! That succinctly states what I've learned over the last few days. Until yesterday, I was totally unaware of the Captain's ability to tank. Madam Narika clearly showed that in the hands of a talented player, the Captain CAN tank. And Zhongo's teachings has led me to participate and lead fellowships to a much better success rate.

To Sir Zhongo's comment about CC:

Aye! What can we do to have that gray swirly circle made a little brighter and more noticeable?! My first character was a Lore-Master and I don't know how many times someone would attack the dazed mob when faced with a choice of active mod or dazed mob.

And finally (for now at least, I'm sure I'll have even more questions after today's adventures): Is there a reliable way to stop your next selected skill from going off? I've found a couple of times that the creature I've just targeted for my next skill was just dazed...

Ok: now for my last question... really... How do I use these lovely Runes Madam Delaney crafted for me?

[Zhongo Fuzzyfutt]

onyxblade said:

It's so hard I have to tell hunters to turn of stance of strength because one strike with an arrow and I'm chasing after the mob that's decided to eat hobbit hunter stew!

btw this is rule #1 of tanking is that the hunter needs to run the things to you....minstrels are tough because if they are in the middle of a heal everyone can die if they come run to you...but damage classes need to run to the tank....and these are some of the reasons

1) if the tank goes to the hunter
a) he takes all the mobs he is tanking with him out of melee range and that can mean 5 or 6 mobs
b) most of the mobs in this game with aoe (Area of Effect attacks) attack in a frontal cone...so if he is tanking one of these and runs to the hunter the whole group may get unnnecessarily walloped by this.
c) sometimes it takes the tank out of the healer's line of sight

I know I am missing some reasons...but you can see why it is better for the hunter to not attack for 3 or 4 seconds than for the tank to bring his multitude of targets to the hunter...

[hrafnr]

Place the runes on your belt as if it were a scabbard or bow (equip it in your slot next to your craft tool)

[Zhongo Fuzzyfutt]

onyxblade said:

And finally (for now at least, I'm sure I'll have even more questions after today's adventures): Is there a reliable way to stop your next selected skill from going off?

I hit space bar and the jump usually breaks my queued skills...

I try to set those icons above cc targets...and in vent tend to give a kill progression....however...what I should do is just set the progression at the beginning of the instance in fellowship chat, so everyone knows that the blue shield and paw are going to be CC'ed and that we should kill in order the skull, the paw then the blue shield...this is laziness on my part or my fingers feeling arthritic on some days...

[OnyxBlade]

...but you can see why it is better for the hunter to not attack for 3 or 4 seconds than for the tank to bring his multitude of targets to the hunter...

Never thought of that! I shall be careful if I have a horde around me!

Place the runes on your belt as if it were a scabbard or bow

I see.. so that's why I lose my bow sometimes! Thanks!

hit space bar and the jump usually breaks my queued skills...

I try to set those icons above cc targets...and in vent tend to give a kill progression....

I tried using my xbox controller with headset the other day, too much hassle, so I'm going to Best Buy to pick up a cheapie headset today.

[yunkor]

There IS a command to undo the queued attack, but if you look at options on the keybindings there is no key bound to it, so you have to set it. I have never done it I keep forgetting, but I always need it.


When I'm on Yunkor tanking, if a hunter uses stance of strength, I let him tank. After all he wouldn't be using stance of strength unless he wanted to tank!

(I have the same tough love policy for when I'm playing Yunkgar)

[hrafnr]

I've only tanked a bit but my general policy unless it is a minstrel (or healer in another game) if a person insists on drawing aggro with major attacks (usually hunters or sometimes 'mage' types in WoW/EQ) then they get to deal with it if we're in the middle of a serious fray. As zhongo says, make them run to YOU with the mob if they want it gone...

I do agree the LM stun needs to be a bit more clear. I've never had trouble spotting it (though inadvertent AOEs sometimes break it), but apparently a lot of folks honestly miss seeing it and hit the mob.

[OnyxBlade]

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of hints and tips that I was looking for!

[cilencen]

Hello all,

I know I am young in level and maybe my thoughts on this topic are trivial or known but I wanted to share my MMO experiences and since changing my main to Champion I think I have developed some good skills for this role.

As some have stated, depending on whether a guard exists or not, style may need to be altered to adjust to the current group makeup.

Scenario #1 - Guard does not exist.
This is probably the easiest of the two since I would assume you want to wield a shield in your off hand and wear the best stat boosting gear for tanking. The champion should pull with his bow versus a hunter since hunters typically cause more damage and you don't want them getting aggro too early on. In tight spots having a lore master pull with a mez or coordinating a champ pull while the LM mezzes a second will also accomplish this task. As Zhongo stated, having hunters or people who draw aggro bring the mob to the champ is a key to success. While in 3rd person you can then see the mob and execute our Tremendous AOE attacks.

Scenario #2 - Guard exists, Champs now have to be versatile and dynamic.
My opinion here is to either dual wield or use a nice 2 hander to cause the most damage you can. I also feel the group needs to be in a good organized formation. We all have played or seen D&D. Typically you set a marching order for success and I think LOTRO is no different.

I have been in many groups where the hunters stay back with healers, etc and then all it takes is one heal from the minstrel or a set of hunters dps'ng the mob then a champion spends too much time trying to get to the mob off said individual thus not being able to strip the mob from the healers or hunters. What a pain this is.

Conversely, I have seen groups bunch up so much that it is hard for the champion to see which mob is attacking which char, causing a bigger mess for the champion to try to decide which mob is the right mob to pull off. Its almost impossible in this situation to see who is hitting the softer armor wearers.

My idea on group formations:

I think Guards, Capts, and Champs should stay up front close together.
Minstrels to the rear with Lore Masters. Burglars and hunters in the middle or shortly behind the tanks.
The champions should get as good of a 3rd person view as they can and in the case of the minstrel pulling aggro, it will be clearly seen as the mob runs past the group towards the minstrel. Then the champion can pull the aggro off the non desired back to a tanking class. if a hunter gets aggro, they are not far being the champion where the best scenario is for us to just turn around and regain aggro. No matter what support class gets the aggro though, they should always find the champion which will also help the champion determine and target the correct mob to pull them off faster.

Lastly, I think communication is key when playing a champion. I know the guard or main tank should call the shots but as a second-in-command,if you will, we should inform the group how things will make the champions job easier and more successful for everyone. So let the leader develop the plan but we should consult on our style and what makes our job easier.

An example is when I was in a group with a captain. I was the leader of the group and he kept trying to tell the group what to do and started randomly pulling mobs with little concern for the others. It ended up where I had to tell him, "he may be in a Captain in role but if want to finish the quest, the group and he best listen to the me since I was the one having to deal with the Off Tanking." We ended up finishing the quest with little or no casualties.

Hope this adds some benefit for players not use to working an Off Tanking class.

Thanks


Miali Wolfrunna - Cil's Main

[timko]

One thing about burglars -- most of them (me included) have an agility build that means we rarely get hit. So we make good off tanks to pick up that archer that is hitting the minstrel.

Of course in a really hard encounter I use the mez on the sideboys and focus on tricking and Conjunctions on the main target.

Timko

[duri]

As a lvl 50 champion, I do not see much benefit in carrying a shield. Even if you are the main tank, what you gain in armor from the shield, you lose in aggro generation from giving up the damage from a second weapon (or thru giving up a 2Handed weapon in lieu of a 1 handed weapon). I personally use a 2 handed weapon 99% of the time, and I tank just fine with it, and am much better able to hold aggro (although champions will never do that as well as a guardian).

[yunkor]

It doesn't seem to me that minstrels are supposed to stay back. The spells are timed to your weapon, so every 1.6-2 seconds you stand around doing nothing. I've read devs put that in so you can cast, hit, cast, hit. Otherwise it's cast, wait, cast, wait. Yunkgar always gets in there and swings away. I also use the ability that does an aoe heal with every hit. And use weapons that debuff not merely do dps.

Plus i'm right by the tank if I get aggro i just say something and no one has to run around and do anything. Mobs ping ponging between groups is a real PITA for the tank. (too bad minstrels/hunters don't have a threat reducing ability they could wait till it gets close, faint, then it runs back to the tank) Most often it's best for the tank to get the aggro back than another class, just since often that means the healer has to heal that other person, generating more threat.

The only problem is if the mobs do aoe.

If this were another game like WoW on my priest I'd stay as far back as I can. But minstrels don't seem anything like priests. edit: caveat: Yunkgar is only 25.

[OnyxBlade]

Champions are more than straight DPS. No matter how much I complain about our lack of utility skills. I consider my job-title as "battle-master". I pick up adds, pulling them to the guardian if needed. I pull mobs off of non-tankers when needed. Generally trying to guide the mobs where they need to be. Directing the flow and ebb of a battle.

When I know that I'm going to be main-tanking, I equip my +threat traits and never have an issue maintaining aggro. I do use my shield for the additional blocking when there's a group of mobs, switching to 2H or DW when I don't need the blocking or I need fervour. (Hopefully Devs hear my plea for a 3rd weapon slot so I don't get that annoying "not enough room" when I try to switch to my 2H weapon with full sacks)

When I'm with a guardian, I'm often in the position where I'm going to off-tank a mob at a time from the guardian and I have my shield and Glory for those situations. If I try, I can pull a single mob from a guardian to do this even give him back to the guardian if I'm in over my head.

As far as minstrels staying close to the battle, I agree with Yunk. Get them up there swinging with their big club. They're pretty good with grabbing aggro once in a while with their big heals and it's sometimes not easy to get that mob back from them without having to run over and get them, which wastes time and damage.

High Agility Burglars are excellent tanks except I'm not sure how much aggro generation they have. If a burglar has a mob beating on them and a minstrel has a mob beating on them, I'm grabbing the minstrel's attacker and leaving the burglar alone unless he/she gets in trouble. They're more than capable of taking care of themselves for a while. (not that minstrels aren't, but I want them helping others instead of concentrating on keeping themselves alive). Course LM will take precedence above those, poor squishy things.

[Delaney]

timko said:

One thing about burglars -- most of them (me included) have an agility build that means we rarely get hit. So we make good off tanks to pick up that archer that is hitting the minstrel.

The agility part is certainly true, but hey, quit volunteering us for the front line. That's what the hobbit/dwarf in a can is for, after all. *grin*

[timko]

onyxblade said:

---snip
High Agility Burglars are excellent tanks except I'm not sure how much aggro generation they have. If a burglar has a mob beating on them and a minstrel has a mob beating on them, I'm grabbing the minstrel's attacker and leaving the burglar alone unless he/she gets in trouble. They're more than capable of taking care of themselves for a while. (not that minstrels aren't, but I want them helping others instead of concentrating on keeping themselves alive). Course LM will take precedence above those, poor squishy things.

Burglars can't draw aggro very well at all. That is why we are often the last one standing. But when we do have the enemy's attention, yes, we can take care of ourselves for a good long while. Minstrels can as well, but as you say, they need to focus elsewhere.

Burglars also do very poorly with more than one attacker. 4 "green MOB's" can take us down if we aren't careful.


Timko

[Delaney]

timko said:

Burglars can't draw aggro very well at all. That is why we are often the last one standing. But when we do have the enemy's attention, yes, we can take care of ourselves for a good long while. Minstrels can as well, but as you say, they need to focus elsewhere.

Burglars also do very poorly with more than one attacker. 4 "green MOB's" can take us down if we aren't careful.


Timko

Burglars can off-tank a lot better than people realize, I think. My evade and parry abilities make up for the lack of a shield, and even better, the evades now trigger my critical-hit skills. Tossing in the Mischievous Glee healing, the human's Strength of Morale heal, Riddle, and Startling Twist allows me to stand in there for a nice bit of time. Now there are other useful things we could be doing in a group, but squishy we're not. Tanking a number of things can be a big problem, but it very much depends on the level, and it's usually more of a solo concern.

Holding aggro has improved a little bit with the tweak on Provoke, though there's still no way we can hold it with an equal level guardian, champion, etc. in the group. (I did find I could hold aggro even with a low 40's guardian.) Provoke is almost more useful in giving threat to someone who can hold it better. I'm still trying to figure exactly what Enrage is really good for, other than getting the mob off of whatever it's hitting at the time. Enrage plus Provoke can focus the monster on a desired target, but Enrage itself is sort of random.

It is funny though ... I played a thief/rogue on a mud for years, and it was the prime tanking class due to the parry ability. It's still a bit of a surprise when I'm in LOTRO, hitting something, and it's running OVER me to get to the champion/hunter/guardian behind me. (Hey! *stab* Pay attention to the burglar, dammit! =P)

[duri]

Onyx, maybe the reason our experiences are different is because Pillagers doesnt seem to have many level 50 Hunters. I ran thru Carn Dum as the main tank with 2 hunters in the group, and trust me, there is no way I could have held aggro with a shield. I could barely hold aggro with my 2 hander, and I often needed to switch back to turning Fervor ON just so I could rte-take aggro, Glory couldnt cut it much/most of the time.

Now if a champion is tanking in a group without hunters (and without well-equipped champions running with Fervor on), then it would be much easier to hold aggro. It sounds like a shield worked well in your situation, which I am glad to hear because after my experiences I had given up on a shield.

[yunkor]

Heh I can barely keep aggro with 2 hunters!

And you know that Guardian's Threat legendary trait is awesome. Harder on minstrels because you lose 5% mitigation, but it's like glue for mobs.

[Zabrak]

timko said:

So we make good off tanks to pick up that archer that is hitting the minstrel.
Timko

HA! So he thinks!