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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 20, 2008 20:41:00 GMT -5
So...rather than Hijack Ony's Thread I transplanted the stuff I was posting over here.... Ok....so, because I saw Del's post on the main forums I thought I'd give a preview of the New Combat stats using a level 50 Burg I made but never used. Image 1 is a Level 50 Burg with no gear. As you can see the Stats are in a "Raw" form. To get the real value you mouse-over. Image 2 is that same Burg in full Shadow Stalker Gear. and Teal Jewelry. I highlighted the Evade since it is crucial to survival for a Burglar. As you can see, its a fraction of its former value BUT enemies suffer from a similar degradation and one on one you may very well not notice a difference. It doesn't really show until you face more than one foe. Now.....Image 3 is a look at the Crit chance. First, before you panic.....the Crit and Devestating Crit add sooooo, you actually have an 11.6% crit chance here. By comparison, I'll show you Asca's at level 53. Yeah....looooooow BUT I do proc Crits fairly often. The saddest part is that my Melee + Tactical Crit are combined less than a Burg's Melee crit. Now....BPE (from stats and traits) has a hard cap (at this time and it may change) of 15%. Partial adds to that to exceed 15% and Gear can also exceed that 15%. A 'Partial' BPE does open response skills so Burgs and Guards aren't totally gimped by these changes. Note also that these stats are vs. same level baddies. If you are facing someone higher than you....um, ouch. If they are lower then you...ouch for them. Ok...more to follow.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 20, 2008 20:42:57 GMT -5
In answer to YngviOk....can-o-worms...opened. It looks like they did make a small alteration on combat classes so that the cap is now 20%. In Image 1 you can see that my Guard has a 20% Block with Guardian's Defense engaged. His Partial adds on to make his total Block 27.6%. Now....its important to understand that GD is now a FLAT 5% Block add-on. In Image 2 is Base Block + GD + Guardian's Ward. Notice the Block didn't go up BUT Partial did, making it a total of 31.4%. GW now scales with level. There has been a marked change in design philosophy and now Toggles do less while skills that require activation do more. basically they wanted players to be engaged in the fights and not walking away to get a soda during a fight. Gear can and will increase BPE and in fact another design change has been to focus more on getting Gear to make up for weaknesses of a class. In some cases they have built Instances so that you need Gear from X Instance to give you Mitigation for enemies in Y instance. In short, skill matters less and Gear matters more. Guards aren't gimped by this change as much as they are by the Mitigation changes. Diminishing Returns has hit Mitigation and also scales with level. A 100 Mitigation at level 10 might mean a 10% Mit while at 50 you need 1000 point to obtain that same Mit. Guards (and everyone else really) WILL take more damage. Food, Potions and Healers are going to be a MUST. Actual Numbers..... Mitigation5240 = 42.1% Common Mitigation 2014 = 21.2% Shadow 1672 = 18.2% for the rest Resistances4759 = 19.4% Wound Resist 2290 = 10.4% Disease Resist These numbers are at level 50 and would decrease % wise as soon as I hit 51.
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Post by Delaney on Oct 20, 2008 23:32:27 GMT -5
Lots to ponder there. The information is much appreciated, Grendelori! One question if I may - I noticed the burglar actually has a ranged combat efficiency rating now, and I know that the class items are moved from the ranged item slot. I'm guessing that despite these changes, burglars don't actually have a ranged attack - am I correct? Thanks again!
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 21, 2008 15:46:00 GMT -5
Heh...yeah....not so much......I'm not sure why it shows up. I guess you could equip throwing knives for a pull but that's a huge waste.
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Post by Delaney on Oct 21, 2008 15:58:39 GMT -5
That's pretty much what I expected, but it was a nice thought.
I've been somewhat mourning the lack of anything truly new for the burglar class in the expansion as far as the trait sets are concerned. Every single thing they offer either results in a buff or a new result for existing abilities. Gambles seem to be the only new thing, but it's still just a possible effect of one of eight alternatives to finish the critical response chain. Whee. (Every single trait set capstone/legendary ability is just another stupid possibility for the end of the crit chain, and we already have Exposed Throat and Flashing Blades. Idiots.)
In thinking about what new things they could have given us and not skewed balance, I decided it would have been fun if they had made a non-consumable throwing dagger to put in the ranged slot. There are some times when I'd actually use it, whereas I never waste my time with the little consumable versions.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 21, 2008 16:20:18 GMT -5
A little later I plan to take screenies of the Trait Paths for Burg, Hunter, LM and Guard as well as the RK and Warden perhaps.
I won't have enough storage space to mouse over all Traits but you'll see what the Line bonuses are and I'll mouse over the Capstones.
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 21, 2008 17:15:27 GMT -5
I claim no ownership of threads
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 22, 2008 9:42:11 GMT -5
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Post by Olmandis on Oct 22, 2008 12:37:35 GMT -5
I think Turbine has been rather deceptive in their means of production and pr lately. "You get new devastating crits!! (not mentioning the normal rate of crits has gone down, and both now stack to make it needlessly complicated) New epic armour and weapons!! (that you may now need to take on any and everything in a dungeon, so get ready to either run strat 64 times or QQ, lol rp and all that rot)
Turbine is constantly presenting points like a freshman term paper...they fail to quote their sources.
"All in all, this change in the system is right for the long-term health of the game and its community. The feedback we’ve garnered from the last year has really pointed at a need for this. Like every new system it will take some time to get used to, but you’ll quickly find that with some adaptation in gear and play-style, your hero of Middle-earth will again be challenging the mightiest of Sauron’s forces!" pg 5 Dev journal.
D
Needs improvement. See me after class. Please quote your sources in mla format.
What feedback....where? Checking out the split comments in that forum suggest otherwise
Why do I get the impression I'm being resold a game I already bought? I understand the need to scale things back for improvement, rather than making stuff bigger, better, stronger, it seemed like an emphasis was being placed on balance, and I think that be a fine way to go. But then pretty much goes out with window with implementing gear for every facet of instancing and combat.
I enjoyed the fact I had skill as a tank, not at picking gear. I like how my reaction time and stratagem made instances possible, not the fake armour bonus of the fake plate I got off the fake monster in the fake game. I think this facet is the final nail in the coffin for turbines attempt to make a different mmo for the casual gamer, but well, who can blame them, casual doesnt mean hardcore.
I would buy this notion, if they were on a pay by the hour plan, cause with pay by month, why even worry about such things? I think marketing has essentially taken over and taken the luxury sedan aspects of the game, stripped it down, took off the top, made it into a convertible, put in a wow-gas-guzzling hemi and a age-o-conan spoiler with a warhammer cherry bomb exhaust and said "uber ridez, yo." And frankly, I'm not gonna buy it first, test drive it later.
I think this is pretty much writing on the wall along with the additions of balrogs, forochol the low-content but "look a new grinder area' mentality zone that we're now seeing with the rk class. That fresh " but we have new content" type selling point. Not to mention wow's own expanse is coming around the same week of next month. Competition is one thing...but this doesnt seem like turbine is making at attempt to appeal to their demographics, its more turbine vs blizzard and loro vs wow for top dog. I picked Lotro for Lotro. Wow is much better at being WOW than Lotro is.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 22, 2008 15:58:23 GMT -5
I think Turbine has been rather deceptive in their means of production and pr lately. "You get new devastating crits!! (not mentioning the normal rate of crits has gone down, and both now stack to make it needlessly complicated) New epic armour and weapons!! (that you may now need to take on any and everything in a dungeon, so get ready to either run strat 64 times or QQ, lol rp and all that rot) Here is the thing here.....anything based on Stats and Traits suffers from DR AND Cap. Skills will get you to Cap on full BPE and then increase Partials but that still means taking a LOT more damage. Gear can supersede the caps BUT % to pts ratio decreases with every level. In other words 100 pts at 10th level gives you 10% Common Mit but at 50th level you need 1000 pts for that same 10%. You MUST get the best gear to do the next hardest Instances. You WILL needs the Annuminas Gear to do the Rift. You need Rift Gear to do Vile Maw. And herein lays the biggest shame. I liked that LoTRO was more dependent on Skills and less so on Gear. To me that made this game a novel concept and one that could have worked if they wanted to try but "opaque feedback" seems to have made that too difficult. Funny you should say that....there is a Steffel interview (codemasters I think) where he talks about 'new pricing formulas' because the current ones are "outdated". In the end, combat is different....harder....requires new tactics and active participation by players. In the past you could kinda pay attention in a lot of fights and be 'ok'.....now, you'll get your lunch eaten for you. Ultimately, Hunters suffer the least from BPE changes as ideally they stayed 'at range'. A new trait in the Trap Master Line will allow traps to be laid In Combat, allowing for 'Johnny on the spot' CC. The sad thing is that this addition along with some of the LM changes makes the Hunter almost as good at CC as a LM.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 22, 2008 16:30:01 GMT -5
Oh...yeah...I forgot.......
DPS is linear from 1 to 50 BUT from 50 to 60 it advances exponentially.
In other words.....by 60 you'll have weapons with 60ish DPS.
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Post by Brunli of the Many Names on Oct 22, 2008 16:54:44 GMT -5
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 22, 2008 17:27:29 GMT -5
So with the now-emphasis on gear over skill it seems LOTRO is basically a shinier version of WoW For normal content you can make do with Crafted. I had a chance to run Asca using my Crafted and then Upgrading to Annuminas LM Gear and Crafted worked fine....... For Raids...... that's where things will crash and burn. Take the Vile Maw Boss...... Acid damage in instant death quantities without Mitigation (I was boggled by damage totals being posted in Kin chat early on). Most Armor has limited to no Acid Mit and I believe that the Rift Sets is the only place to find Mit high enough to make a difference. This will be a theme from here on out. If you want to Raid, you'll need to start at the beginning to get the Hel Suit to get the Minas Suit to get the Rift Suit to get the Maw Suit to get the Purple Horseshoe Suit and so on and on ad nauseum. Now......much of Moria IS soloable....even the Books for the first few. There are areas that you will need friends. All in all, its a cool place but then....I have almost zero interest in Raids. For people who do.....welcome to your new full time job. ;D In closing......You WILL need to upgrade Gear regularly.....its a must due to Stat erosion. The only way to maintain Resists and Mitigation is to get the newest stuff you can wear. If you are a 47 and wearing 43 because of a stat you like, life is going to be painful and potentially short. This is "By Design" (tm) and "WAI" (tm).
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Post by Verewen of Rohan on Oct 22, 2008 18:07:58 GMT -5
Going back to City of Heroes is sounding better and better by the minute.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 22, 2008 19:03:50 GMT -5
One more thing for Burgs and I'll add Guards in here as well. Image 1 is my level 50 tricked out Burgulator with Touch and Go going; You get 65% Evade with a Partial of 5.3% for a total of 70.3%. With rare exceptions that's as good as it gets. Image 2 is my tricked out Guardinator with Guardian's Defense and Pledge going; He maxes out with a 77.6% and again..... that's about as good as it gets. Image 3 is his Common Mitigation with Full High Protector's Armor. He is at 42.1% Mit. With Endurance of Stone he hits 117% for 10 seconds every hour!! I know....AWESOME, right The rest of his Mits are 18.2 (1672 pts) and 21.2 (2014 pts). Shadow and Fire can hit the 90s with EoS but the rest are Gear and Potions dependent at this time. Now...again......bad guys are just as weakened so .... DPS DPS DPS DPS.
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 22, 2008 19:35:44 GMT -5
I got onyxblade copied over. I did a bunch of stuff in Beta with the new combat system that I do in Live with the old combat system.
Same gear.
Results? Just about exactly the same.
From tanking to solo-ing to dps. About exactly the same.
I still saw lots of crits, saw lots of blocks, parry, evades.
Saw lots of damage.
In both cases.
I expect that as I level up, my gear is going to be better. I expect that as I enter hard instances, better gear will enable me to be function better. I expect that the hardest content in the game might *gasp* actually require me to work at something in order to be able to beat it.
99% of the content in the game is too easy. However, I would imagine that if I tried doing it without working towards having the appropriate gear, it would be quite a bit harder than it is. Maybe even nearing impossible.
Maybe we should try something... Let's all switch into normal quest reward gear, unslot our legendary traits and try to take mordirith. I betchya, we won't have much luck. It'll be ... *gasp* near impossible.
I look at the changes that they've made to combat and it makes sense to me. Will I have to change some stuff around? Yes. Will I have to change the way I'm geared? Yes. Will I have to get new armour and weapons? Yes. But really, what else is there to do in an MMO?
Every single time there's been an update, someone as thought it's the end of the game world. Each time, after the update has come out, Turbine has shown itself to have done a good job in keeping the game from being worse than it was.
They've earned my trust enough that I'm not worried.
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Post by Yngvi Silverhand on Oct 22, 2008 20:17:18 GMT -5
Now, we just need more bag space (and vault space) to keep all our shiny, stylish gear. Then we'll be OK.
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Post by Ascahilion on Oct 22, 2008 20:25:23 GMT -5
Well....we do get Key Rings for all of our keys......
And we get quest items that don't need to be used to during a quest tracked in our Quest Tracker......i.e. not kept in our bags.
There are also more Chests to buy at the bank.
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Zabrak
New Member
We are family?
Posts: 498
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Post by Zabrak on Oct 23, 2008 7:47:19 GMT -5
Going back to City of Heroes is sounding better and better by the minute. Must I come over there and beat you with a stick?
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 23, 2008 8:45:09 GMT -5
Now, we just need more bag space (and vault space) to keep all our shiny, stylish gear. Then we'll be OK. 2 new vault chests... non-usable quest items go into your quest log instead of your bags, keys become deeds/passive skills when you right click them, and I haven't tested it yet, but I'm told single-use recipes stack...
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Post by Yngvi Silverhand on Oct 23, 2008 22:55:54 GMT -5
Key rings! At last! Now, I can load up on keys and act like janitorial staff. And quest items not taking up bag space? Sweet! I'd like to see all the recipes stack, not just the single use. Well, this will help keep us out in the field adventuring longer between runs to sell vendor trash. Oh, and Zab: I hear that might be a new War Mace skin for CoX... (The Halloween event this year is a zombie apocalypse, though. Mmmmm...blasting zombies!)
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Zabrak
New Member
We are family?
Posts: 498
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Post by Zabrak on Oct 24, 2008 7:56:11 GMT -5
Oh, and Zab: I hear that might be a new War Mace skin for CoX... (The Halloween event this year is a zombie apocalypse, though. Mmmmm...blasting zombies!) Huh? Whazzat?
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 27, 2008 13:04:59 GMT -5
From a dev:
As an important distinction, players will have access to obtaining the Radiance gear without doing raids so that the bonus of Radiance is available outside of the raids. More on this later, but just wanted to throw that out there.
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katarnus
New Member
King of Alts
Posts: 171
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Post by katarnus on Oct 27, 2008 13:48:06 GMT -5
From a dev: As an important distinction, players will have access to obtaining the Radiance gear without doing raids so that the bonus of Radiance is available outside of the raids. More on this later, but just wanted to throw that out there. I don't know what that means exactly, but it sure does sound good!! ;D (at least for me, a lazy bastich that has never done any raiding. )
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Post by OnyxBlade on Oct 27, 2008 14:26:50 GMT -5
There was fear that in order to "complete" the "raid", everyone would need the "radiance" set. (which MAY be true, since the watcher gives out 15 dread (aka 150 gloom), but unknown since I don't think anyone's beaten it yet).
Which would require "intense" farming of several different 6 man instances to obtain for everyone.
Seeing that "Teh Set" is available outside farming the instances is a good thing. (My guess is through Marks of Valour, which would again require "farming" of instances, but would open up the different instances it would require to a good dozen or two. a good few of which will be soloable by a level 60)
note: radiance and gloom are the new "terms" for hope and dread. 1 hope = 10 radiance, 1 dread = 10 gloom. 3+ dread = more bad now though... as each dread over 2 lowers your effective level by 1. AKA: a level 50 with 3 dread fights/resists as a level 49 chumpie.
note2: I'll confirm my believe that raids are the reward for those that go above and beyond the call of duty of going through the grind and fun that is collecting this type of thing. Would I like to see the raids without going throught the "grind"? Yes, but I'm happy to wait for the next paid expansion.
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