Minstrel discussion

[Zib]

The minstrel forums over at Turbine's site are crazy and depressing. But it seems that a majority of the comments are based on minstrels ability to solo.

While I understand this is generally an issue for any support class, I am lucky enough to be able to dual wield a hunter and a champion for my weapons. So I am not terribly concerned about a minstrel's ability to solo (besides, I have a warden to solo).

The impression I am getting is that the new combat system is geared toward fellowships requiring two healers to be successful - a primary and a back up. This would be supported by the introduction of a third 'secondary' healer with the runekeeper.

Are these impressions that you higher level minstrels are seeing in the new content? I know we will not really be able to tell until a bunch of us are level 60. But I am curious and would like to discuss this among sane minds (or as close to sane as we come ).

[OnyxBlade]

I'm definately NOT a good healer, though I have played one a bit. Jecii and Yngvi should be the ones to weigh in the most here.

But what I've seen is that monsters are hitting HARDER and FASTER and it's going to be tougher for the main healer to keep up. Having a second healer to withstand the enemies' damage bursts may be essential later on.

90% of the time I've been playing Wilim has been as more of a DPS type guy with the ability to heal. When a minstrel gets into Melee Range and starts yelling and screaming and playing his banjo, they CAN do a decent amount of damage. Now, my understanding of the minstrel's issues are that the tactical dps damage isn't scaling the same between 51 to 60 that the rest of the other "DPS CLASSES" do. That may be true, but I apply the same reality check to this complaint that I apply to the rest of the complainers on the forums. If someone says 100 on the forums, the "real" answer is probably 10 to 15.

And remember, Minstrels have the single best skill in the game. Distraction. I remember one day Wilim solo'd a group of 4 higher level elites, because of Distraction. Now, I wouldn't recommend this in practice, but I distracted one and then had to go afk to handle a child issue. Got back, distracted #2 and decided to get a cup of coffee. Came back, distracted #3 and then picked them off one by one.

Minstrels and their fancy skills!

And the stories are true about minstrels being able to solo master elites solo. Takes a long time, but auto-attack + the glowing flying sword + heals + the occassional outburst = win

[Verewen of Rohan]

I agree 100% that some input from Jecii and Yngvi would be greatly appreciated here. Speaking as a sometime Minstrel, and having just recently gotten a taste of group content in Eregion the other night, I do want to add that they've done something seriously jacked up and increased the aggro generated by healing, I'd bet my last dollar on that. Using lute strings AND my theorbo, and my Anthem that reduces healing aggro, I STILL couldn't scrape those Wood Trolls off me. I was also staying as far back in the crowd as possible, so as to stay out of the thick of things.

I don't think a healer can effectively wear a DPS hat and a Healing hat at the same time. I'm almost always in War-Speech with Shieleth, especially if there's an Onyxblade or Missa in the group. I turn into an absolute berserker with a drum and my dual-Oathbreaker swords, hitting mobs with tactical nukes as often as possible. I just CAN'T help it. But then running healy-mode requires a whole different style of play. I go to the bard and swap out most of my class traits if I know we're going to be doing some hard stuff that will require power conservation and dedication to healing.

I do know that I've compared Shieleth to Yngvi (and the two of us have talked about this at length)... he has more "healer" traits slotted, and up until recently ran around with ONLY a Theorbo slotted, and he was soloing just fine.


Minstrels are a higly viable solo class. I have very few problems with Shieleth, except for when my heals get interrupted. That's going to happen with any class where they're in a situation where their absolutely essential powers are being interrupted by the baddies. But I'll tell you, it doesn't happen too often. One of my proudest ever solo situations? Shieleth was level 24, out in the Lone Lands, and got jumped by a level 28 Elite Warg (Kraur). Okay, so it wasn't too pretty, and most of it was auto attack by the end due to power issues, but when the dust cleared, Shieleth was still standing, and Kraur wasn't.

This brings something else to mind.... Minstrels have the ability to wear Medium Armor, starting at level 20, I believe. But it takes a class trait slot to do it. So you know what? I never bothered. My minstrel wears nothing but cloth, with a decent shield to back it up. I think if you know your character well enough and know your abilities, it doesn't matter what kind of armor you're wearing.

*re-reads everything* Hmmm... where was I going with this again?

*drool*

[jecii]

Hmm...where do I begin?

Well.....healing agro has recently been "seemingly" increased by a huge magnitude. One heal on a char in a group full of DPSers, and the entire crowd of mobs looks at me with murder in their eyes and goes to unreal lengths to do something about it (or so I feel), typically being satisfied only when ol' Jecii is either eating dirt or staring sightlessly at the stars (or ceiling as the case may be in Moria or other less tasteful indoor location). Just the other day in the group I was in with fellow pillagers, I tossed a heal at Missa (after she had poked a gobbie with a quiver full of arrows) and said gobbie turned and looked directly at me...thankfully it didn't get close enough to cause me harm due to the additional arrows sticking out of its various body parts ..'nuff said there (for now....more research is needed).

As far as soloing, I've never REALLY had much trouble taking down single whites...maybe even a second, but I don't like doing more than one. I never thought much of Jecii as Crowd Control...I have ol' pointy ears for that stuff.

Just recently I feel the ability to solo has somewhat increased, but that could just be the new toys we all are getting. Jecii has two Rift pieces and the rest is either crafted (some are teal), and /or recently obtained "Moria" quested gear.

Just the other day I took out the Angmarim smith (something I would have avoided if I was in a more sane state-of-mind) outside Mirobel. This punk was yellow and signature to me. I noticed that nothing else was around so I said, heck..why not?

I almost exclusively solo in WarSpeech now, so I pulled him with my pretty Oathbreaker blades, then proceeded to pound him into the dirt . I think he got me to 50% at one point, so I just punched off the quicky heal and then went back to smacking him...tossing in the WarSpeech skills (both of them) when they were available. I also use the Herald's Strike (just upgraded it to Improved today after training(52)) with the Noble Cause running...nice little heal for me on each smack. By the time it was over, I was back around 40% morale / 20% power which is nothing unusual.

I'd normally not tango with signature mobs only because they are most often accompanied by friends.

I'd say I'd want to study the situation more (and gather more coin for repairs) so that I have a better idea on exactly how much my uh...healing playstyle will need to change.

I agree that having an additional healer in the group helps loads...and it doesn't need to be another minstrel. I personally love the heals captains have (the one they can use after a kill that is group heal-over-time). That little bit goes a long way of keeping a minstrel's power up and avoiding the massive amounts of agro that the Inspire Fellows song generates.

So, my initial take on this is that other healing types need to take a more general approach to grouping such as:
- Lore Masters tossing that heal on the tank backing up the Minstrel when it is feasible (and available) just to help reduce the agro on the minstrel
- Captains using that great HoT during battle at every opportunity
- Burgs using their own self-heal whenever it is possible...and the list goes on..

I think each class has skills that add to healing...even wardens with their shield bash/spear strike gambit. That adds a nice bit of heal-over-time.

Another thing I have noticed. Rune-Keepers can heal, but don't expect much of it...most of their "early" heals are long delay Heal-Over-Time types and won't keep a group alive very long. That Rune of Restoration is nice, but has a fairly finite aoe range...and guessing that as the levels go up, mobs will see that stone as something to be smashed whenever one is around.

Just my take on things as they stand right now....worth? perhaps 2c

JECII

[Delaney]

I <3 Minstrels. They keep the tanky types up and moving, so I can gleefully stab things in the back with my daggers repeatedly without them even noticing me!

But to add a slightly more rational thought on healing, (getting away from minstrels, though, sorry) I do use my self heal frequently, even in groups, mainly so no one (hopefully) has to worry about me much. (Particularly since I am usually 8th or 9th on the aggro list in a group of 6.) For major "slow-burst" heals in key situations, I'm a strong advocate of the all-green or successful named conjunction when I have my healing signal equipped. It usually provides 2400-3200 morale to everyone in the group, in bursts of 400-600 every few seconds. I have done large and small fellowship instances where that was the major healing available. In that respect only, I could be considered a decent minstrel backup, perhaps.

[Yngvi Silverhand]

OK, a few random notes:

1. In fellowships, I have to more a proactive healer now. That is, pre-MoM I would be able to look at someone's morale bar and say, "Uh on, tank needs a heal!" and click a heal. Now, with BPE, resists, and mitigations capped (and somewhat lower because the line bonuses from class traits are gone), I need to check morale bars ahead of time, and say "Tanks gonna need a heal in about 10 seconds, I better start one." Sometimes, even if I start a heal early, someone will drop because the rate of damage is faster than the induction timer of my heal (and I have induction-reducing trait slotted). I'm hoping to find something to decrease the cooldown of the insta-heal.

2. Soloing your minstrel is easier now (and it wasn't too bad with War-Speech running, before the update), because the BPE caps and such were applied to the mobs, too. At level 51, I could take down the level 52 Angmarim outside Mirobel with little difficulty. As long as it's one at a time, anyway. My usual opening attack chain starts with the ballad of +armor (can't recall the official name right now), then Call of Orome, Piercing Cry, and Ballad of the Stout. I start the swords somewhere in there, depending on how fast the mob closes. I also rely on racial traits, like Dwarf Endureance. My usual active tale is Tale of Warding, for the extra armor and hope.

More as I think of stuff...

[Zabrak]

Dec 4, 2008 19:48:09 GMT -5 Yngvi Silverhand said:

I'm hoping to find something to decrease the cooldown of the insta-heal.

It seems that many legendary items I have found have had the trait of reducing cooldown timers. Not sure if it exists for the "insta-heal".